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April 21st, 2014
01:29 pm

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Larry Correia Strikes a Blow Against Puppy Related Sadness
Natalie Luhrs is annoyed that Larry Correia is encouraging people to vote for himself and other writers he likes for the Hugos this year.  That is, she argues, properly a privilege that belongs to her and her own snooty friends on the Left.  And we certainly shouldn't link to Correia's post.

So, to show Natalie just how much I respect her opinion, she's inspired me to link to Larry Correia's post "A Blow Has Been Struck Against Puppy Related Sadness."

As always, Larry Correia is fun to read.  :)

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[User Picture]
From:xiphias
Date:April 21st, 2014 09:57 pm (UTC)
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Out of curiosity, do you personally think that the Vox Day story is worth a Hugo nod?
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From:jordan179
Date:April 21st, 2014 10:03 pm (UTC)
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I do not know, as I've never read the story. Or anything of Beale's.

The concept, as stated, reminds me a little bit of Poul Anderson's The Merman's Children, though Poul Anderson probably did it better -- because he did everything better.

I was linking to it because I was offended at the attempt of whatsername ot act as a gatekeeper.

I do think that some of Correira's writing might be Hugo-worthy. though I've never read his Grimnoir books, only his Monster Hunter International stories.
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From:xiphias
Date:April 21st, 2014 10:10 pm (UTC)
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I haven't read Correira's stuff, but it does sound like the sort of thing I'd enjoy, so I'll probably pick it up at some point.

I think the issue here is twofold: Vox Day is obnoxious on a completely different level than most people -- he's not expressing opinions that I disagree with, so much as expressing opinions which are not congruent with society, and that the work itself is weak enough that it is blatant that the only reason people would vote for it was out of support for the author, not the work.

As such, when you're already in a situation where the supporters are voting based on a personality, it's not unreasonable to suggest NOT voting based on the same rationale. If the work was actually the topic under discussion, there wouldn't be an issue, since it wouldn't have been nominated in the first place.
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From:jordan179
Date:April 21st, 2014 10:58 pm (UTC)

Double Standards, Part I

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I sense a huge double standard here.

Vox Day argues dubious science (creationism) on religious grounds, and he argues dubious sociology (Blacks and Hispanics less able to form and participate in civil society than Whites) based on outdated theories of eugenics. He does not, please note, argue for theocracy or for Nazi-like racial wars.

Now, many of the luminaries of Leftist science fiction argue dubious economics (socialism) on ideological grounds so irrational that they amount to "religion," and even argue for hostile treatment of others based on their class -- a folly which the history of the 20th century shows can be as lethal as racism. They have publicly expressed support for regimes and organizations which practice intense violence, often in defiance of the Rules of War, and often for racial and religious reasons.

I could track this sort of thing all the way back to the Futurians in the 1930's and the support of some of their members for various flavors of Communism (such as Judith Merril, who was a Trotskyist; and Frederik Pohl, who from 1936-39 was a member of the American Communist Party). Would you be forgiving of, say, science fiction writers who actually joined the Nazi Party?

I'm not attacking Pohl in particular for his youthful support of something he thought was good but was actually the blackest of evils, everyone makes mistakes). I'm merely pointing out that supporting murderous regimes seems to be forgivable based on the excuse that the smirking psychopath-in-charge gives for committing mass murders against helpless civilians under his control -- if he says it's because they were untermensch, it's not ok; but if he says they were "kulaks" or "wreckers," it magically becomes ok, even though the victims are just as innocent and just as dead in either case.

Coming a little closer to the present day, I remember when large sections of the science-fiction community supported the Communist takeover of Southeast Asia -- an event which cost the lives of some six million civilians, murdered by the victors after the fighting was over. Most of them have never apologized for this. But of course, that's far enough back that many of them are now on the outs with the current politically-correct crowd. That quarrel, incidentally, was one of the reasons why Robert A. Heinlein became hated by the Leftist wing of SF -- because he remained true to his own country and the cause of human freedom, while they were cheering as the tanks rolled into Saigon and the real killing begain.

In terms of the present brilliant Leftist luminaries of science fiction, not only do we have China Mieville publicly demanding unequal enforcement of the laws to disfavor the middle and upper classes, as the only way to obtain "social justice," but we also have Charlie Stross and Ken MacLeod arguing that Hamas and Hezbullah were no worse than Israel -- I don't think they've ever apologized for that one, either. I mention the latter case because this was part of the issue over which they cheered on Carlos Yu and Douglas Muir for wrecking my E-Bay account by making false bids on items and then posting complaints the instant they won the bids -- showing that some Leftists are very serious about making the "personal political."

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From:ilion7
Date:April 26th, 2014 08:26 am (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part I

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"Vox Day argues dubious science (creationism) on religious grounds, ..."

Actually, that part isn't true. The truth is this: "Vox Day argues *against* dubious science (evolutionism) on rational-and-scientific grounds, ..."
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From:jordan179
Date:April 26th, 2014 06:17 pm (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part I

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I get that you're a crank where biology is concerned. I've made an extensive study of paleontology and am very aware of the interconnecting webwork of evidence that supports the age of the Earth and the reality of evolution. Stop trying to muddy the issue -- you're only making your own side look crazier.
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From:ilion7
Date:April 27th, 2014 01:35 am (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part I

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And I get it that there are things that you just *will not* think about.

Do you really imagine that it bothers me that someone like that calls me a "crank"?
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From:jordan179
Date:May 16th, 2014 07:50 pm (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part I

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I have thought extensively about the age of the Earth and the patterns of biological evolution. You are foughly in the position of someone in the 19th century, when numerous planetary moons had been discovered, the first asteroids observed, and spectrographic analyses of sunlight and starlight begun still trying to claim a geocentric solar system with "heavenly bodies" composed of "quintessence" rather than the dross four elements of our Earth.
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From:jordan179
Date:April 21st, 2014 10:59 pm (UTC)

Double Standards, Part II

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Most recently, there has been the whole business of racially-segregated "safe spaces," excluding white males, such as the one at WisCon. I submit that if Beale organized a con with a "safe space" for white males, he would be accused of being Adolf Hitler reincarnate -- yet apparently racial discrimination is just fine if one discriminates against white men, as K. Tempest Bradford boasted was being done. I posted about this at

"A Safer Space - WisCon36 To Engage In Open Racial Segregation!".

In my opinion, Communism is just as noxious and evil as Fascism, classism as bad as racism, and if we forgive Communists and classists, we must logically forgive Fascists and racists as well. What is more, prejudice against whites and males is as bad as prejudice against other races and females, and should be as severely condemned.

I do not support double standards. Especially not double standards which are very obviously motivated by partisan politics. And still less double standards which are motivated by radical politics.
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From:philmophlegm
Date:April 21st, 2014 11:15 pm (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part II

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Agreed. And as I said below, I don't remember there being this fuss about China Mieville. For more on just how nasty some of his views are, see here:
http://seasonoftheredwolf.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/china-mieville-and-his-high-profile-status-in-the-virulently-anti-semitic-uk-socialist-workers-partyrespect-coalition-part-1/
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From:marycatelli
Date:April 22nd, 2014 01:54 am (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part II

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Here's another essay on Mieville:
http://www.city-journal.org/2012/eon0308td.html
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From:cutelildrow
Date:April 27th, 2014 02:54 pm (UTC)

Re: Double Standards, Part II

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Thanks for that. Enlightening articles, both of you.
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From:philmophlegm
Date:April 21st, 2014 11:08 pm (UTC)
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I read Correia's debut, Monster Hunter International, and wasn't expecting much to be honest (and that sort of modern real-world fantasy isn't usually my thing). I was blown away by how good it was. The guy is a very talented writer. Haven't read the book that was nominated this year, but he definitely deserves to be nominated on merit.
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From:xiphias
Date:April 21st, 2014 11:14 pm (UTC)
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Yes; I think there's a conflation of things here. Somehow people are trying to conflate a reasonable nomination with an unreasonable one, because one of the authors is conservative, and the other is FRICKIN' CRAZY NUTS PSYCHOTIC and is also a terrible writer.

The people who are against this aren't saying anything against Correia's nomination, because it's reasonable. They're against Beale's, because it's so clear that nobody would nominate him EXCEPT for political reasons.
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From:philmophlegm
Date:April 21st, 2014 11:26 pm (UTC)
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And it's unfortunate that people are lumping in Larry Correia with Vox Day as if they have the same views. I've seen people online referring to Correia as a "racist" for example. As Mr Correia points out in his blog, these people are never able to find any examples, and he's sort of a "writer of colour" himself anyway (he's part-Portuguese I think, which makes him sort of hispanic).
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From:carbonelle
Date:April 22nd, 2014 06:40 pm (UTC)
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Well if he's part Brazillian, then he's almost certainly a mutt (I use the term with love, as it describes my own family): a mix of American (south) Indian, Portuguese, Germanic/pomerian and black. The Brazillians intermarried like woah.
From:jsl32
Date:April 24th, 2014 04:28 am (UTC)
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no, vox day isn't psychotic. he's a heretic and a big old nerd, and he race-trolls like crazy, but he is not a bad writer. he is well above average to the people whining about how he's psychotic, as far as i can tell.

but i'm a Christian, conservative black housewife who really like speculative fiction, both reading it and writing it. the people who are claiming the hispanic/asian descent vox day and the straight-up hispanic larry correia are racist aryan white dudes would not want my fiction published either. and they might well find a way to say i was white, too, for not towing their party lines if i were in the situation of having published work eligible for some sff award.

fandom gets to say some seriously vile, genuinely psychotic things about people like me with zero pushback, and this puts me in the very irritating position of feeling that remorseless troll vox day has a point. i think under tvtropes it's "extremist has a point".

but seriously. i've read some of his non-fiction and sci-fi writing and a little of his epic fantasy, someone very close to me is a big fan of his recent epic fantasy, and between the two of us, we think he's ok. his epic fantasy had a night and day improvement from where he started out several years ago and his sci-fi is light and cute. adorkable you could say.

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From:ilion7
Date:April 26th, 2014 08:36 am (UTC)

oh, give 'em a break ;)

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"... and they might well find a way to say i was white, too, for not towing their party lines if i were in the situation of having published work eligible for some sff award."

Well, in their defense, there is *nothing* worse -- nor more "white" -- than a black woman (or man) who starts thinking for herself (or himslef) and ends up escaping the "liberal" plantation.

It's like with my red ancestors and the reservations: how *dare* I be against socialism, and all its variants! (Everyone "knows" that Indians just don't and can't comprehend the "white" idea of private property, and thus their descendants can't either) How *dare* I rejoice that my red ancestors escaped the dragnet and didn't end up out West as eternal wards of the Great White Father, but instead fully integrated into American society!
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From:jordan179
Date:April 26th, 2014 06:19 pm (UTC)

Re: oh, give 'em a break ;)

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Well, in their defense, there is *nothing* worse -- nor more "white" -- than a black woman (or man) who starts thinking for herself (or himslef) and ends up escaping the "liberal" plantation.

Indeed -- Leftists will either ignore their claims of respect due to minorities when members of said minorities refuse to blindly agree with them or -- even more hilariously -- will sometimes lie regarding the racial identity of the dissidents. Note the treatments of Condaleeza Rice and George Zimmerman by the liberal press.
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From:selenite
Date:April 22nd, 2014 03:38 am (UTC)
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I liked Grimnoir a lot more than the Monster Hunter books. I'd actually bounced out of the MHI sample chapters. Finishing the Grimnoir books made me give MHI another try, and now I've finished the whole series.
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From:philmophlegm
Date:April 21st, 2014 11:05 pm (UTC)
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"...expressing opinions which are not congruent with society"

I agree that Vox Day's opinions are not congruent with society. However, neither are China Mieville's, and he's won a Hugo. (Mieville's views seem more repugnant than Vox Day's to me.) It seems to me that SF and Fantasy fans have to choose between one of two situations:

1. We judge the quality of the work, not the political views of the author.
Or
2. We only allow authors with mainstream political views, whether of the left or of the right to be nominated.

My preference would be option 1. Most of the angry voices on the internet seem to prefer a third option:
3. We allow only left-wing and extreme left-wing (even cultural Marxist and traditional Marxist) authors to be nominated.

If we do get to 3 (and I could see it happen), then fine. Just call the Hugo an award for socialist science fiction or something - just as the Prometheus is the award for libertarian science fiction. We'd then need two more new awards - a new award for conservative science fiction and a general award for science fiction novel / novella / short story more like what the Hugo used to be. (Maybe the Nebula is this already.)
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From:marycatelli
Date:April 22nd, 2014 01:54 am (UTC)
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Nebula is SFWA's award -- so, no.
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From:philmophlegm
Date:April 22nd, 2014 08:17 am (UTC)
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Good point!

We definitely need a new award then.
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From:carbonelle
Date:April 22nd, 2014 06:42 pm (UTC)
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There's the Andre Norton award, which is only lightly touched by the po-mo madness. Getting teens to read the academic-darling khreppe is nearly impossible, so you can almost always find an excellent story within the ranks of the nominees.
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From:inverarity
Date:April 24th, 2014 02:32 am (UTC)
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Even though in the past I've said I think it's reasonable to refuse to support someone whose views you find noxious, I am actually getting rather sick of the outrage. It's no longer "I will not support someone I find offensive," it's "You must join me in ritually condemning someone I find offensive or you are as bad as he is."

It's pretty bad when "my" side is almost tempting me to vote for Vox Day just to spite them.

I'm definitely nowhere near either Vox Day or Larry Correia on the political spectrum, but I have enjoyed Correia's Grimnoir chronicles. And I'm reading VD's novelettes now. (Yes, I will review them when I'm finished.)
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