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Regarding the Orlando Attacks ... - jordan179
June 13th, 2016
06:32 am

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Regarding the Orlando Attacks ...

What you're seeing here is the Caliphate attempting to enforce its laws -- shari'a -- in Western societies by means of terrorist attack.  This is part of a wave of terrorism they explicitly called for, to be launched during Ramadan.  And in shari'a, homosexuality is punishable by death.

This target was cleverly-chosen, because the point is to get some Westerners who hate homosexuals, to sympathize with the motives of the attackers.  Also, gays are at least perceived to be politically-vulnerable, because their political allies are unwilling or unable to do anything against Muslim anti-homosexuals, as it will offend Muslims (the Muslim radicals, watching our system from the outside, don't realize that gays don't vote as a bloc).


Unless we as a nation act effectively to block terrorist entry into America, and the radicalization of Muslims in America by ending the idea of "different culture" as a de facto exculpatory factor; and in cases like this respond with massive and deliberately over-proportionate retaliation against the foreign sponsors (where present), these attacks will continue.   Islam will [i]always[/i] find lunatics whose mad hate can be encouraged, rather than suppressed, by a religion largely built around hatred; and they can be primed and shot off like rounds of ammunition against us -- and worse, like precision guided munitions, against the parts of our society which they don't like.


Worse, because it means that they will change us to be more like them.

Have you enjoyed the last 40 or so years of freedom to be openly gay, a freedom unprecedented in the history of the West, maybe of civilization?  Do you want to keep it?


Then be prepared to fight for it, because Islam does not mean that you should keep it.


That is the significance of what happened in Orlando, and what has already begun happening in London and many other places in Europe.


FIght, or lose your freedom.

(44 comments | Leave a comment)

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[User Picture]
From:robby
Date:June 13th, 2016 02:21 pm (UTC)
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“Hillary will bring hundreds of thousands of refugees, many of whom have hostile beliefs about people of different faiths and values, and some of whom absolutely and openly support terrorism in our country. We don’t need that. We have enough problems.” -Donald Trump

I saw a report of a poll taken by the Al Jazeera Arabic website, (since hidden) that indicates a staggering percentage (~25%) of Muslims in the US support violent Jihad.
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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:07 am (UTC)
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And note that there is an important difference between someone who belives that using violence to spread his faith is morally wrong (most Christians) and someone who believes that it is too dangerous to risk (an at least large minority, and possibly a majority, of Muslims). The reason why Muslims generally don't act to expose the terrorists among them is that they don't think the terrorist are morally wrong; simply reckless. That latter calculation can change as their cause grows stronger.
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From:tagryn
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:51 am (UTC)
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I found the AJ poll being referenced, the one going around as saying that "81% of Muslims support ISIS." Looks like was strictly online with no controls as to who was allowed to participate or for representation. In other words, GIGO.

Edited at 2016-06-14 10:52 am (UTC)
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 13th, 2016 02:56 pm (UTC)
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This target was cleverly-chosen, because the point is to get some Westerners who hate homosexuals, to sympathize with the motives of the attackers.

Rubbish statement in an otherwise decent post. Devout Muslims are not looking for allies among non-Muslims.

Per sharia, every American is under sentence of death for supporting (by taxes, etc.) an army that has invaded Muslim lands. That makes us all legitimate targets of jihad.

Per sharia, every American is under sentence of death for being an infidel: we have already been invited to accept Islam (through the steady stream of broadcasts from Qaeda, ISIS et al.), so those who continue in some religion or belief system other than Islam, are guilty.

That's two death sentences right out of the gate. Homosexuality incurs a third.

Why would they care about what the twice-condemned think of the thrice-condemned?
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From:headnoises
Date:June 13th, 2016 03:13 pm (UTC)
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Tactics. Power. Makes us serve them.
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 13th, 2016 03:15 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, I get it, but I'm saying they don't think that way.

And if I'm wrong, then they miscalculated badly, because the number of non-Muslim Americans who would applaud a slaughter in a gay club, and say, "Y'know, those ISIS guys are OK after all," is a pretty small and politically powerless number.
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From:headnoises
Date:June 13th, 2016 04:08 pm (UTC)
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Oh goodness yes they miscalculated-- these are the same idiots who don't grok restraint.
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From:allaboutweather
Date:June 13th, 2016 04:30 pm (UTC)
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Regardless, this is "another opportunity" for the Left. Like usual, they come out swinging, blaming conservatives for "provoking" the Muslim. Much to their disappointment, the NRA had nothing to do with it either.

The fact that liberals support Islam and the LGBT is quite a contradiction. Muslims throw gays off roofs and treat women like property.


The fact that Hillary wants hundreds of thousands of more Muslims into the country means that she sides with them. She and Obama REFUSE to call Islamic terrorism Islamic terrorism.



When will the LGBT realize that Democrats aren't on their side given their reaction to the Orlando massacre?
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From:marycatelli
Date:June 14th, 2016 12:31 am (UTC)
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I have actually read, right here on LJ, someone sanctinomously talking about how she would not blame groups for individuals, then blame gun owners. And announce that she does not want to hear that we need more guns to take people like him down.
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From:allaboutweather
Date:June 14th, 2016 02:48 am (UTC)
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All gun control advocates are hypocrites. They will say "don't judge all Muslims for the actions of the few" and "the entire NRA is the evil vast white-wing conspiracy that did this" in the same sentence. If that isn't doublespeak, then I don't know what is.
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 14th, 2016 12:44 pm (UTC)
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Anti-gun people are not only hypocrites, but also usually irrational and have a violent streak. Ironically, I agree with them insofar as I don't think THEY are fit to have weapons.
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From:marycatelli
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:06 pm (UTC)
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But since they are leftists, and can't be trusted, obviously no one who has not attained their marvelous marvelousness and wonderful wonderfulness can possibly be trusted. Why, you might think that some non-leftists were superior to leftists!
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 13th, 2016 04:35 pm (UTC)
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Not buying it.

Machiavellian calculation is the MO of some Islamists, yes, such as CAIR. But not ISIS.
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From:headnoises
Date:June 13th, 2016 08:27 pm (UTC)
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What's Machiavellian about "group A gets bossed around by group B, and I can hurt B; if I hurt B enough, then B will fear me, and A will start letting me boss them around."

It's just normal gang/mob mentality, but Jordan says it prettier.
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From:headnoises
Date:June 13th, 2016 08:27 pm (UTC)
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It takes a LOT longer to say it than to observe it.....
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 13th, 2016 08:46 pm (UTC)
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So who's A and who's B in this scenario? In the original post it sounds like A is "conservatives/Christians" and B is "the LGTBQ crowd".

If that's the calculation, again, ISIS got it unbelievably, fatuously wrong. Conservatives/Christians disapprove of the LGTBQ crowd's behaviors, and want them to quit waging lawfare, but don't approve of them being murdered either. Conservatives/Christians are not going to be any less hostile toward ISIS or Muslims just because it's the LGTBQ crowd they are attacking.

But I reject that ISIS is doing such a calculation in the first place. Both A and B are filthy infidels worthy of death. They don't care what A or B thinks about ISIS, except for any among their number who converts to Islam and pledges loyalty to ISIS. They don't care whether A "lets" them do anything to B or B "lets" them do anything to A. They are confident in their ability to destroy both A and B in due time. Their preference of either one as a target at any given time is purely tactical or providential.
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From:headnoises
Date:June 13th, 2016 10:51 pm (UTC)
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It's a rephrasing of Jordan's sentence that you didn't like; A = "the West" and B is probably something like "pubic perverts" in their minds-- I'm pretty sure they'd include a topless female protest in the group, along with furries (likely shoving it under bestality), but not NAMBLA.

But I reject that ISIS is doing such a calculation in the first place.
You keep acting like it needs to be a formal "I have considered the situation and believe X, Y and Z are the most valuable tactical targets."

Think more visceral-- I know!

Are you familiar with dogs, at least on the level of some of those horrible reality TV shows where the guy explains that the way the owner is acting is telling the three pound inbred ball of fur that he's the alpha, and that's why he's attacking people who come in the house?
Try thinking more like that-- "The West" is one dog, whatever group the gay nightclub represents in their head is another, and they're observing the "west" dog acting like the "gay" dog is higher rank.
Attack the higher rank dog, and you'll cow the lower one at the same time.
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 13th, 2016 10:55 pm (UTC)
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That's the reverse of what Jordan seems to be saying though. You are saying that gays are the "alpha".

Either way, I think they view America as one dog.

Edited at 2016-06-13 10:56 pm (UTC)
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From:headnoises
Date:June 13th, 2016 11:29 pm (UTC)
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A vulnerable alpha-- if they weren't higher in the pack rank, then the 'westerners' that already 'hate' them would be doing attacks like this themselves.

If they viewed America as one dog, they wouldn't keep whistling for individual Muslims here to rise up at their service.
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 14th, 2016 12:19 am (UTC)
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Obviously they don't include Muslims in "America."
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From:x_eleven
Date:June 14th, 2016 09:29 am (UTC)
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"...along with furries (likely shoving it under bestality),.."

That one hits too close to home since I'm one. Could never get a straight answer from the muzzies how they regard Furries, and that's an answer in itself. Let us also not forget that gays are over represented within the fandom as opposed to the public at large.

Edited at 2016-06-14 09:29 am (UTC)
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From:headnoises
Date:June 14th, 2016 02:30 pm (UTC)
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Along with pretty much every other bad group, including "women who dress and act like men"-- even if that's mostly because we're all wearing t-shirts and jeans, and are too clueless to catch on to "this cool geek is X sex."
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From:luagha
Date:June 15th, 2016 02:44 pm (UTC)
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It depends on whether or not you play a goat.
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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:20 am (UTC)
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"Divide and conquer" is a fairly easy strategy to do.
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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:18 am (UTC)
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Have they miscalculated? The American left is blaming everything but Islam for this. Guns, the Republicans, our own culture ...

Most gay leaders are joining this chorus and blaming at most "religious-based hate." You know, like those mean Mormon girls who didn't want them to sit at their lunch table in junior high; or the Catholic guy who said a mean word once.

Blaming Islam is met by ferocious virtue-signaling.

It looks to me as if, at least in terms of open statements, not even American gays are seeing the danger in importing Muslim immigrants.

And as long as the Left sees no reason to stop Muslim immigration, and gays don't mind this, how exactly has Islam suffered by this?

Though it may come around to bite them in the ass in the long run. Or medium run, if it gets Trump elected and he's serious about fighting Islam.

Edited at 2016-06-14 10:19 am (UTC)
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From:headnoises
Date:June 14th, 2016 02:32 pm (UTC)
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Most gay leaders are joining this chorus and blaming at most "religious-based hate." You know, like those mean Mormon girls who didn't want them to sit at their lunch table in junior high; or the Catholic guy who said a mean word once.

Or the blood centers that asks those who engage in high risk sex practices to not donate blood.
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From:prester_scott
Date:June 14th, 2016 04:18 pm (UTC)
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That is an FDA rule, not the blood centers'. Presumably Obama could change it if he "cared". (To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of non-gays at high risk for STDs.)
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From:headnoises
Date:June 14th, 2016 07:04 pm (UTC)
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Sssssh, none of your facts, here.

More relevantly, the specific objection was to AIDS prevention measures and they blamed the local blood banks for "homophobia."
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From:marycatelli
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:15 pm (UTC)
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And there are those trying to exploit this to change the rule again.
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From:gothelittle
Date:June 19th, 2016 12:48 pm (UTC)
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They have miscalculated if they have hoped that they could draw Christian support by attacking gays.

It's easy for a group motivated by hate to stir up a group motivated by hate predictably, because they understand each other.

Very difficult for a group motivated by hate to stir up a group motivated by love, or at least by devotion to an ideal based on love, because they can't just project and understand what the response will be.

So the Left has responded predictably.
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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:13 am (UTC)
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The Muslims are perfectly capable of hating some infidel enemies more than others. Their leaders are perfectly capable of learning the lines of division within our own culture and using them against us.

They've already learned from their European experience that they can attack gays and get only a lukewarm reaction from many non-gays because the non-gays want to appease the Muslims and mostly don't care what happens to the gays.

This strategy works for two reasons: (1) Many leftist non-gays don't actually like gays and lack the "natural rights" assumption that they have to respect their basic human rights rather than their special minty gay rights, so they're happy to see them taken down a peg; and (2) this lets the leftists (wrongly) believe that the Muslims will be satisfied beating up gays and will leave the rest of the leftists alone ("feeding the crocodile").

Just because Islam is a stupid vicious philosophy doesn't mean that all its practicioners are morons. Don't underestimate the foe.

Historically, Islam has been a winner, except when the West has turned its technological superiority on them by posing the strategic question as "Find the most efficient way to kill them and keep killing them until the survivors run away or surrender." Dividing us allows conquering us. That has been their tactic since they first fought the Eastern Roman Empire.

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From:prester_scott
Date:June 14th, 2016 12:47 pm (UTC)
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I guess we'll find out. Seems to me, though, the CAIR types (use our own rules/values against us) have had more success dividing and conquering us than the ISIS types (hit us as hard as possible).
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From:little_e_
Date:June 13th, 2016 05:51 pm (UTC)
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It's an act of war, and I'm fucking pissed, and I'm also fucking pissed that most of the people I interact with are either "sad" about it and "sending their condolences to Orlando" or acting like nothing has happened at all, instead of outraged.

I'm also pissed at my gay acquaintances who accused me of "racism" for pointing out that Muslim immigration is a bad thing for them and who claimed that "moderate Muslims are fine with gays." Even if they were (which they aren't, as anyone who actually pays attention to what Muslims believe knows,) it only takes a small minority who think its a good idea to murder gays to make things really unpleasant.

Ignorance is not virtue.

You can have Muslims or gays, but you can't have both.
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From:marycatelli
Date:June 14th, 2016 12:40 am (UTC)
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The ones I've run across parade some gay Muslims. That is, the very fringe of the fringe. . . .
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From:sianmink
Date:June 15th, 2016 05:46 am (UTC)
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I wonder what the violent death and suicide rate is among openly gay muslims.

I'm guessing it's alarmingly high.
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From:robby
Date:June 14th, 2016 01:25 am (UTC)
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The latest is that the killer was known at the club, and had messaged some of the men frequently.
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From:jordan179
Date:June 14th, 2016 10:24 am (UTC)
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They don't get that being publicly sad is no deterrent against future attacks. Quite the opposite -- it tells the attackers that we can hurt them.

This is an act of war. And one which immediately escalates to "deliberate murder of civilians." We should respond by picking the Caliphate-controlled areas and engaging in depopulation bombardment strikes. Hit once, then wait long enough for survivors to crawl out of the rubble and emergency services to be mobilized, then hit again to take out the survivors and emergency services. Delibeately start firestorms as in World War II. Make it far more dangerous to submit to the Caliphate than to resist it. If necessary run our own production lines 24 / 7 to replace the ordnance we're expending.

But we won't do this yet. Not until they hit us with WMD. I'm starting to worry that we won't do it even then -- that we'll keep bleating "But we're virtuous," as the knives descend upon our own necks, and we die thrashing about at the feet of the stockpile of nuclear weapons we refused to use.
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From:scipiosmith
Date:June 14th, 2016 07:12 pm (UTC)
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The West became ashamed of the fire bombings in World War II pretty much as soon as the war was over (exactly as soon as the war was over: Churchill didn't mention the bomber crews at all in his VE day speech, and it was only this year that a bombing campaign medal was authorised for the surviving British airmen). So I don't think there's any chance of us biting the bullet now.

That being said, as much as it sometimes feels like they've been sowing the wind for years and its about time to reap in the whirlwind, is there much evidence that terror bombing actually works? Great Britain wasn't broken by the Blitz, Germany wasn't broken by the firestorms, it took atomic bombs to break Japan; why would it break the Caliphate?

Although I must say I can't think of any better response right now.
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From:justgoto
Date:June 13th, 2016 06:22 pm (UTC)
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I agree. I am responsible for my own security.
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From:scottks
Date:June 14th, 2016 12:11 am (UTC)
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be prepared to fight for it

It doesn't take that many people to overwhelm a single shooter. Sounds like nobody wanted to pull a Todd Beamer. "Let's Roll" should be the rally cry of anyone stuck in this situation. Easy to say but hard to do. But in a crowded, dark nightclub, I find it odd that there were no former football players who knew how to tackle. You can die trying to stop the shooter, or just die.
http://www.history.com/topics/9-11-attacks/videos/the-todd-beamer-story-lets-roll
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From:headnoises
Date:June 14th, 2016 02:37 pm (UTC)
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From what I've read, anybody with the kind of sense to do that was busy trying to get people out-- there was a separated Marine, Afghanistan vet, who was a bouncer; he had to stop people from doing the crowd-crush at the back door because they couldn't figure out how to unlatch it.
In the dark, when you're scared and there's a hallway full of people pushing on you, that's a lot harder than it sounds. Especially if most people had been drinking.
***
Seriously, what would it take to offer free firearm training to bartenders? They're going to be sober, they're not melee range, and it would be relatively easy to turn a bar from concealment to cover.
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From:sianmink
Date:June 15th, 2016 05:47 am (UTC)
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That had to be it, anyone with the sense to group people up to fight a single attacker intent on killing everyone had already found a better exit than a bathroom with no exits.
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From:gothelittle
Date:June 16th, 2016 01:06 pm (UTC)
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Gotta agree with at least one other poster here. Westerners don't hate homosexuals. It's just that an awful lot of us (including a hefty percentage of homosexuals!) disagree with having the government force other people to celebrate gay sex.

I don't have to render judgment on what you (generalized) do as long as I'm not being required to render an opinion on it.
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From:justgin1978
Date:June 18th, 2016 04:10 pm (UTC)

"Fight, or Lose your Freedom"

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Whether it's gay rights or constitutional rights, this has always been the answer.

I used to have a bunch of "friends" on Twitter but I got so tired of all the political bashing. And yes I'm Republican and they were bashing the stupidity of the left. It was all well deserved bashing, too, and I completely agreed with all of it. But it made me very upset, It made me want to right the many wrongs that have gone on in this country.

That's when I realized something. All this bashing is getting us no where, except more divided than ever. If you aren't building a bridge, then you are tearing it down. There has to be a point to all this political bashing besides irrevocable division of a people who cannot get along.

The bottom line is if you are willing to sling words at a group of people that enrage them (even if you are in the right), then at some point you are going to have to go to war to fight for what you believe.

That said, I believe we have a massive civil war on our horizon here in the U.S. and it's getting closer every day. When neither side is willing to budge one inch, what else is left?

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